[SGVLUG] You can't have your cake and eat it too... (was: Energycontent of human labor...)

[Emerson, Tom (*IC)]

> -----Original Message----- Of David Lawyer
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 09:25:39AM -0700, Emerson, Tom (*IC) wrote:
> > > -----Original Message----- Of David Lawyer
> > > > [...]
> > > > > The only export from this community is ethanol
> >           ^^^^
> > [and]
> > 
> > > No.  There is "production" of all kinds of services one finds
> > > in a city.  Medical services, entertainment services, [...]
> > 
> > So, which is it?
> Both.  Ethanol is exported but the production of services is 
> all locally consumed in the community (not exported) by the 
> production workers, service workers, spouses, children, 
> retirees, parasites, thieves, and others that live in the town.

[tentatively...] "ok..."

> > If you're going to model and MEASURE the energy flow "to support 
> > activity 'x'", you need to consider that "activity 'x'" 
> isn't the only 
> > thing going on, and [ultimately] it may be /impossible/ to separate 
> > out "energy spent on 'x'" vs. "energy spent on 'x', 'y', 'z', 'p', 
> > 'd', and 'q'".  If you DO consider energy spent on other aspects of 
> > life /as part of/ the energy spent on activity 'x', you WILL be 
> > overstating this value, perhaps drastically so...
> 
> Look at the fenced community.  The only energy flow out of 
> the community is x.  Thus for the community not to be 
> parasitic, it must have energy inflows less than x.  Thus the 
> inflow of energy from the point of view of the outside world 
> is the energy used to produce the only export x.  So the 
> energy spent on y, z, p, d, and q (all supported by inflow 
> energy) all must be somehow "needed" to support the outflow of x.

No -- p, d, q, etc. are NOT necessarily "needed" to support x, but can
(and often will be) alternate "outflows" of energy that are not
"consumed" by the community [such as, ahem, "methane", but then you've
only stipulated a FENCE around the community, not a ceiling and walls to
contain other energetic gasses...]

As you started this thread, you postulated the energy value of the
output of "linux programmers" could be calculated and figured in a
similar manner.  So with that in mind, you must count the "output" of
the rest of the community members as potential and legal exports and
calculate the "energy value" in such things as paintings & sculptures
[from your artisans], movies and music [presuming such sub-industries
exist within the community], inventions & programs ("thought" output),
sports figures [how would you calculate the enegy "cost" of the
superbowl, I wonder? <don't forget the spectators, especially the ones
eating chili dogs...>], etc.  You must either include this in the "total
outflow of energy", or else reduce the measured "inflow" by the amount
of energy it took to produce the alternate goods and services -- good
luck on that one!

Your "cake" in this scenario is "the output of ehtanol", "eating it to"
is the ability to presume the output of ALL humans within the community
MUST support the production of ethanol.

> Sure, you can postulate an ideal community where there are no 
> thieves, parasites, and perhaps a bare minimum of art, 

The "there can be no crime" was only slightly tongue in cheek, but the
real point is that being a criminal does NOT support the production of
ethanol, so any "consumption" of resources or energy that you assign to
the criminal elemant CANNOT be calculated as part of your input costs.