[SGVLUG] I can't send email (but now I can).

[Dustin Laurence]

On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 08:33:55PM -0700, David Lawyer wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 07:02:42PM -0700, Dustin Laurence wrote:
> > 
> > This has nothing to do with Linux--neither mutt nor exim has any
> > intention of serving "desktop users," now or ever.
> 
> I'm not so sure of this.  I decided on this pair as a desktop user for
> a PC that wasn't capable of a linux GUI (an old 486).  Thus I had to
> find software for a command line interface.

"Desktop Linux" is a shorthand people use to mean a fuzzy but somewhat
understood set of requirements.  What you are talking about is far
from that.  *YOU* may intend to use mutt and exim on a desktop, but that
isn't what people mean by "desktop Linux."  Neither is it a goal of the
authors of either mutt or exim.

You can use anything on your desktop that you're capable of installing
and administering, and more power too you.  But it isn't reasonable to
expect mutt, exim, or Debian to try to make it also possible for less
technically skilled people.

Further, if you *must* rate MTAs for user-friendliness, please do
yourself a favor and investigate Postfix.  It is far more reasonable to
configure than exim (which, of course, is far more reasonable than
sendmail).  It is still server software, but better server software
(especially on the property you are talking about).

I tried to configure exim once, and after five minutes realized that I
could apt-get postfix and configure it in less time.

> I tried using msmtp but it only seems to work if I was connected to
> the Internet, while exim stores mail that you've typed offline for
> automatic future delivery when you dial up.

Sure, it's good to have an MTA.  But typical "Desktop Linux" users are
going to rely on their MUA to do this.

> > The *only* way a "desktop" user is going to get mail access is IMAP
> > or (ugh) POP to their mail provider's server.  exim is designed
> > essentially for that mail provider's machine, not the end-user's.
> > mutt is designed for the end-user's machine, but only one who is
> > self-sufficient and *very* computer savvy.
> 
> I should have added that I use fetchmail for getting my mail and then
> fetchmail hands it off to exim for delivery.

That's great, but you were complaining about Linux not being "ready."
Nobody is trying to make it "ready" in the sense that you are using.

> ...Mutt seems to be fairly
> easy to use so I wouldn't use *very*.

*Very* it is.  My folks are good examples of what is meant by "Desktop
Linux."  Heaven and Earth will pass away before they could get mutt
configured, let alone learn to use it.

Doesn't IMAP and POP just pick
> up mail from an ISP while something like exim sends it?

It's possible to set it up that way, sure, because exim is a real MTA.
But IIRC clients generally speak SMTP because they *have* to assume that
the user isn't capable of running an MTA.

> processes/stores what fetchmail gets.  Exim works as a client as well
> as a server.

No.  Please to not redefine "client" to mean something eccentric.  MTAs
can talk to each other and transfer mail from one to another, but the
convention is that "client" refers to the program that provides the
interface the end-user manipulates (you could try to define a client
mode for one MTA receiving mail from another, but this doesn't make the
MTA a client and it would probably only confuse things).  Evolution,
mutt, Thunderbird, and so on are mail clients (or mail user agents).
Procmail is an MDA (mail delivery agent).  Exim is a mail transport
agent.

> transfer email thru LAFN.  So exim (a sendmail clone) seems to have some
> advantages over other email software.

Sure.  There are advantages to running server software yourself.  But it
is, again, irrelevant to what people mean by "desktop linux."

> I'm not saying that most desktops should use exim-mutt-fetchmail but
> it's for the desktop nitch on old computers that cost almost nothing
> today.

No, it is for people who can manage server software.  Someone without
such skills is SOL no matter what computer they have and nobody is going
to try to make a MTA work for them.  Improve MUAs, perhaps.

Dustin

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