[SGVLUG] [OT] Especially for Tom & his Prius.... [my rebuttal, then I'll shut up]

[Michael Proctor-Smith]

On 7/11/06, Dustin Laurence <dustin at laurences.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 12:53:09AM -0700, Michael Proctor-Smith wrote:
>
> > Speaking of CARB apparently they are changing the diesel regulations
> > for 07 or 08 and some of the cool new TDI will no longer be available
> > in California :-(
>
> It's complicated. :-)
>
> My understanding is that <takes deep breath>: for a long time now it's
> been illegal to sell a light diesel in CA with < 7500 miles, because of
> point emissions.  In September in CA all diesel must be ultra-low
> sulphur, so in the 2007 model year it will be legal to sell light
> diesels again, including the TDI's.  But the next year the emissions
> standards will be tightened, and VW's current Pumpe Duse TDI's can't
> meet the tightened regs, so they'll withdraw again from the CARB state
> market for 2008--mostly.  Mercedes won't--their common-rail engines will
> meet the regs.  But the regs are based on the dates the cars were
> produced, so VW is going to stockpile some made before the deadline.  So
> there might be some available for a few months in 2008 anyway.  VW then
> expects to have a common-rail design ready and re-enter the market in
> the 2009 model year.
>
> You'd think it would be done there, but no--the regs keep tightening
> over several years, so whether Mercedes and VW can continue to meet the
> regs is an open question.  I expect so, but apparently it's not a gimme.

Thanks now I understand why the new Audi V8 TDI is a 2007.

> > I know you must be joking as modern cars simply do not make it to
> > production without wind tunnel time and things like checking it they
> > produce lift.
>
> Wind tunnel testing isn't often good enough:
>
> http://www.mulsannescorner.com/benzCLR1.html
> http://www.mulsannescorner.com/techarticle1.htm

I love that I actually know someone else that reads that web site. But
that problem with the CLR1 would not have happened if the designers
were not having to work within Le Mans regulations for the time, the
ACO in an attempt to slow that cars mandated flat bottom cars no front
downforce generating diffusers, you can see the rear diffusers in the
pictures by the way. With the downforce to far to the rear of the car
and going 240+MPH over a big ass bump/hill, which was removed for the
next year. I was actually watching that race live when the second CLR1
flipped, and MB pull out of the race really a bad thing for them as
they were also the manufacturer of the car that cause the greatest
loss of life in racing history(75or80 people when a car ended up in
the crowd), also at Le Mans.

Sense the subject of Le Mans was brought up by someone other then me
and we are talking about TDIs. Just as a comeback to Davids diesels
are not that much more efficient. The Audi TDI achieved approximately
20% better fuel economy then its gas competitor and ~15% better then
its direct injected gas predecessor FSI as audi calls it direct
injection technology which was a similar increase over its port
injected predecessor. Funny enough endurance sports car racing is not
all about speed but also about fuel economy as you need to spend as
much time as possible on the race track and not in the pits getting
more fuel.

> But yes in general I was joking.  For Tom's specific car it actually
> wouldn't surprise me if it produces lift though (it certainly is shaped
> suspiciously like an airfoil): it doesn't go fast enough to generate all
> that much lift (I seem to recall that ground effects only start to kick
> in >~ 100 mph).  I'm not convinced that Toyota went to a lot of trouble
> to avoid lift in a region the car can't achieve, and they were motivated
> to optimize for low drag instead of worrying about lift at, say, 150+
> mph.  I'd not want to drive a souped-up new beetle at 200mph either,
> though I think VW would have cared about high speeds for the new beetle
> more than Toyota did for the Prius (they have faster versions and there
> is far more liklihood of it being souped up).

Back to real life cars you will notice that sport/turbo versions of
the new beetle have a wings or spoilers. Beond the looks/cool factor
they probable cover the engineers ass and disrupt the laminar flow
just enough to prevent liftoff.

> > ...But I agree the road to Vegas is for checking how fast
> > your car will go.
>
> It's the fastest freeway in the country AFAIK; we drive slower in
> Montana with no speed limits (besides, over 80 in Montana is actually an
> automatic careless driving ticket).

I thought it was 100 if it is only 80 I have know reason to go to Montana!